Also see previous post: https://exiledfog.blogspot.com/2025/03/navy-fleet-design-and-lessons-of.html
Question to Self: Am I getting the basics about Eurisko, Lenat and The Trillion Credit Squadron (TCS) Tournament, staged at Origins in 1981 correct? It is forty four years ago and is definitely drifting into the legend and folklore territory.
It seems to have been a messy and emotional thing, like a lot of human endeavours and as above, with the passage of time, some forty four years, it is becoming less and less clearer. From an academic perspective on AI the Origins 1982 TCS event was largely ignored. I don't think it helped get Lenat tenure and may have even harmed him (the toxic nausea academia can have with respect to "games" was perhaps stronger then). The GDW Trillion Credit (TCS) Tournaments were not inundated with AI postdoc research students from respected AI Departments in leading universities trying to be "King" TCS Admiral. That much seems clear (and I think, much to the relief of Origins and GDW staffers).
For the record in 1981 there were three nation TCS competitions. One at Origins (San Mateo, California, winner Douglas Lenat) , one at Gen-Con East (Cherry Hill, New Jersey, winner Martin Misciagna) and one at Gen-Con XIV, near Kenosha Wisconsin, winner Mike Moline). There was no national play-off, but I think it is safe to say the Lenat/Eurisko would have won, because the other two winners were regarded as "conventional fleets. Lenat/Eurisko's fleet stats for Origins 1981 were:
Winning TCS fleet - TL 12 - Origins 1981
-- Lenat/Eurisko Fleet (96 Space Ships in total which probably looked like a floating asteroid belt, 86 on table immediately and ten tucked away inside the bellies of their mother ships)
-- Main Battle Line -- (75 Space Ships)
Seventy-five Eurisko class (Purpose - Battle Armoured (Buffered Planetoid) Missile Ships):
BA-Eurisko
BA-K952563-J41100-34003-0 Cost MCr 13,030.385 Tech Level C (12) Tonnage 11,100
BA-K952563-J41100-34003-0 : Class - Battle Armoured
Ba-K952563-J41100-34003-0 : Tonnage 10,000 - 19,999 tons (actually 11,100)
Ba-K952563-J41100-34003-0 : Buffered Planetoid
Ba-K952563-J41100-34003-0 : Jump (5)
Ba-K952563-J41100-34003-0 : Manoeuvre (2)
Ba-K952563-J11100-1100V-0 : Batteries Bearing
Ba-K952563-J11100-1100V-0 : Batteries
Crew=131; Agility=2; Fuel=555; Passengers=0; Cargo=8; Low=0; Fuel 555; EP 555; Marines=35
Note: L-hyd drop tanks add 5,550 tons of fuel and mass, change the agility to 1, and cost 5.56. (BA-K931363), change Agility to 1 AND COST MCr5.56. The ship is designed to manoeuvre when carrying up to 16,650 tons of drop tanks.
Design Notes:
**-*9*****-*******-*****-* the '9' implies it is a planetoid, basically a hollowed out asteroid. The advantage of this is that it is cheap to build.
-- Reserve Line Space Ships -- (11 Space Ships with another 10 small ships carried in them)
Four Garter class (Purpose Fleet Tender - To Jump the other Space Ships into the battle): TB-Garter
TB-K1567F3-B41106-34009-1 MCr 17,584.104 Bearing C 1 EE 7 12,000 tons
Batteries C 1 EE 7 crew=170 Agility=4; Fuel=840; Cargo=4.3 low=170
Design Notes:
Needle-Wedge shape
Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 6000 tons of fuel and mass, change the agility to 4, and cost MCr6.01.(TB-K1344F3) The ship is designed to manoeuvre when carrying up to 72,000 tons of drop tanks and one Wasp fighter.
Four Cisor class: BD-Cisor
BD-K9525F3-E41100-340C5-0 MCr22,291.175 Bearing 1 11 1U 19,980 tons Batteries 1 11 1U crew= ? Agility=0; Fuel=999; Cargo=19.1 low=95 Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 9,990 tons of fuel and mass, and cost MCr10. (BD- L9313F3) The ship is designed to manoeuvre when carrying up to 29,970 tons of drop tanks.
**-*9*****-*******-*****-* the '9' implies it is a planetoid, basically a hollowed out asteroid. The advantage of this is that it is cheap to build.
Three Queller class (Purpose - Life-Boat Killer): BH-Queller
BH-K1526F3-B41106-34Q02-1 MCr27,802.392 Bearing Z 1 NN1 N 19,600 tons Batteries Z 1 NN1 N crew=263 Agility=0; Fuel=1,176; Cargo=10.72 low=232; marines=200 Note: L-hyd drop tanks add 9,800 tons of fuel and mass, and cost MCr9.81. (BH-L1314F3) The ship is designed to manoeuvre when carrying up to 29,400 tons of drop tanks and two fighters (one Wasp and one Bee).
Notes:
Needle-Wedge Shape
**-*******-******-**Q**-* the Q implies a very large particle accelerator weapon, the idea being it can blow up other peoples Lifeboats (or Shield Maiden if you care to call them that).
-- Smaller Ships -- 10 in total, Wasp (7 x 1,000 tons) and Bee (3 x 99 tons) --
Note: These are carried on other ships
Seven Wasp class (Purpose - Lifeboat [Almost unhittable ship] creates Shield so other ships can retire and repair damage, then return to fight): IL-Wasp
Il-A90ZZF2-J00000-00009-0 MCr896.75 Bearing 1 1,000 tons Batteries 1 Crew=19 Agility=6; Fuel=60; Cargo=0 low=0
Notes:
**-*9*****-*******-*****-* the '9' implies it is a planetoid, basically a hollowed out asteroid. The advantage of this is that it is cheap to build.
Agility 6 therefore hard to hit!
Three Bee class: FF-Bee FF-0906661-A30000-00001-0 MCr127.945 Bearing 1 2 99 tons Batteries 1 2 crew=2 Agility=0; Fuel=5.94; Cargo=0
Notes:
**-*9*****-*******-*****-* the '9' implies it is a planetoid, basically a hollowed out asteroid. The advantage of this is that it is cheap to build.
90 Rocks and 6 Needle Space Ships
- End of Fleet --
Note: I have been unable to locate the 1982 Lenat/Eurisko Fleet. It was almost the polar opposite to the above, being fast and unarmoured, but again numerous. In 1983 he was asked, "not to participate" by the organisers. Credit should also be given to the nameless runner up at Origins 1981 who has a similar (relatively individually small sized 10k+ [when compared to 75,000 tonne Dreadnoughts] but heavily armoured fleet, so numerous space ships - without the "specialist ships" Lenat had) fleet. He/She (but let's face it probably a "he") too would have beaten all the conventional fleets.
According to the Trillion Credit Traveller booklet the Origins 1981, 1982 and 1983 TCS Tournaments conformed to the following rules (they seem to have been advancing the Tech Level by one each year):
Douglas Lenat did include the event in his published research papers as an example of a test-case use of Eurisko, alongside other more standard domains (such as helping with Very Large Scale Integrated Circuit Design [VLSI]). It was a supplementary research issue that helped him think about his core interest, that is common-sense logic, that is a form of knowledge representation we have yet to crack. He was in the Symbolic-Ontology camp, even if it became uncool (see below. Lenat on Cyc, in one sense the ongoing evolution of Eurisko):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjkbmLjwXO8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2rK40bNrrY
Citizens of the Imperium - Forum Threads on TCS and Eurisko:
https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/eurisko-and-tcs.38249/page-2
9 comments:
Ah, those ship designs make more sense. It is a bunch of cruisers and drop carriers, I'd imagined a swarm of fighters when you said 'small ships', at least the cruisers can carry spinal mounts. I used to use drop carriers too, but with immobile battleships, not cruisers. I need to dig out the rules to read the ship stats properly, and work out the special features. Presumably the AI minmaxed the various construction and combat charts, as many of them were non linear. I did that by hand with my trusty programmable calculator, being an Economist etc.
Yes it is a little confusing .. lots of not so small ships .. in fact construction was cheapened by the fact they are "buffered planetoids" so you could call them "battle rocks". So Lenat took a bunch of painted pebbles as his fleet to win teh tournament. So I can see why Games Design Workshop (GDW) were not too enamoured with it, no one will be wanting to but any impressive range of battleship miniatures from them! Just pick up some gravel instead!
Another point of confusion is that in casual conversation the distinction between the 1981 and 1982 fleets are not made clear - the 1982 Fleet (apparently) was full of light unarmoured fighters with the focus on the "offensive"
I'd completely missed that they were plantoids! I don't think the ship construction charts were designed with competition gaming in mind, just as the costs of standard equipment aren't. Only a lunatic would equip their infantry with plasma rifles, let alone plasma grav tanks. Good old slug throwers are the way to go. I'm still puzzled by the handful of fighters, unless they were just there to use up some credits. Possibly they have a sacrificial screening role in combat, I need to reread combat system.
The handful of fighters are there for a cunning plan. If the Euriskos were getting battered .. as if for example they were fighting another fleet of planetoids .. the battered front line can retire to the reserve and the lifeboat Agility 6 space ships screen (Wasps) being almost unhittable lets the Euriskos repair and return to fight again. Note: Lenat also included a lifeboat killer in hit fleet .. the Queller class. Clever .. which never had to be used until the final and the threat made his opponent to resign!
Is teh Bee a second type of life boat?
90 Pebble (Rocks) and 6 Needles
The thread from the Traveller forum discussion you sent me was very enlightening. I was half right about the sacrificial screen, but not that sacrificial with Agility 6. What a cheesy fleet!
Yes, the Origins 1981 TCS Tournament is the gift that keeps giving but not as a specific answer to anything .. which is the paradox that seems to sum up AI - a lot of computer cycles spent .. but what for exactly?
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